My Duvet Flip with Jack Parsons ft. Elliot Moss, Chief Brand Officer, Partner at Mishcon de Reya

Speaker 1: 0:07

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Speaker 3: 0:55

I am EY For the purpose that inspires me and the culture that accepts, for a team that relies on me and makes me better. For it Knowing I'm always respected for being absolutely me. For my work to have meaning, ideas becoming actions in my direction, my own. For leaders that challenge, guide and support, empowering me to be all I can and bring everything I am, my skills accelerated, my voice amplified. For always feeling heard and saying without hesitation I love what I do. That's why EY.

Speaker 4: 1:41

Mum, I got the job. She got the job. She got the job Ready. She got the job. She got the job. She got the job Ready. She got the job. She got the job. She got the job. She got the job. She got the job. Yeah, find you.

Speaker 6: 1:58

I got the job, job on Total Jobs.

Speaker 7: 2:15

Hello, my name is Elliot Moss. I'm the Chief Brand Officer and Partner at Mish Gondaraya. I'm a CEO of a law firm and a bit more as well. We employ just under 1500 people and we were the people that represented Princess Diana in her divorce. For those of you that might remember her or have heard of her, we make an impact on young people through our social impact strategies, specifically our social mobility strand, where we help lots of young people from underrepresented parts of the country to come in and try and see whether they want to join a business like Mish Gondaraya and understand a bit more about the law. This is my duvet flip, where you will learn about my career journey, my industry and probably what motivates me, and that will all come out throughout my conversation with young Jack. Thanks for having me over, jack.

Speaker 8: 3:01

Elliot, how are we today?

Speaker 7: 3:02

I'm alright. I'm alright. How are?

Speaker 8: 3:04

you? Yeah, it's cold outside, but it's warm in here and we've got our hot drinks, which is always good, isn't it?

Speaker 7: 3:08

I've got my lemon and ginger.

Speaker 8: 3:09

You've got your lemon and ginger. I've got my peppermint tea.

Speaker 7: 3:11

I've had enough caffeine for a week.

Speaker 8: 3:12

We're all ready to go. We're ready and the energy is great. Chief brand officer at a law firm. There are so many questions I've got, but before we get into where you are now and what you do, I like to go down memory lane and talk about and the first question is always the same because you're working for young people tuning in We've got LinkedIn community tuning in as well, which could be anyone. It could be anyone from anywhere, which is really exciting. But tell us a little bit about your first job. What was that first job? What did you learn on that job that you wish you knew before you went into that job that you want to pass on to young people who are going into their first jobs or could be in their second week, third week or two years in? What is something that you learn that you wish you knew before?

Speaker 7: 3:59

My first job. I'm not even sure if you're allowed to do it anymore in terms of age, but I was. I think I was 13 or 14 and I'd asked my parents whether they could up my pocket money that was a true story, jack my pocket money because I wanted to get some LS. I think it's LS or LS, see what I always call it LS the little sweat bands and the headband, because that was what was called in 1983. Whenever it was, they said no sunshine. If you want to pay for those, you need to go out and get a job. So I went to the local golf club and my very first job and in fact it lasted for almost two years.

Speaker 7: 4:34

Every Saturday and Sunday, or either two days or one of the days I was a caddy and it was really hard work. The thing that I remember and for those people that don't know, I don't play golf it's a four and a half hour walk around a golf course and you're a 13 year old kid. Sometimes the bags were really heavy and sometimes my shoulders would bleed, and I'm not joking. What I learnt was a very simple lesson and it was about doing a bit more than was asked of you and the way I learnt that was the following Most of the courses, like, it goes up and it goes down and sometimes you can wait.

Speaker 7: 5:10

You can wait while your golfer goes down one hill, goes to the next tee, tees off, comes back up the other end and you wait there because you give them a couple of clubs and you just sit there and you have a ten minute break. What I figured out was if I went down with him and it was generally a him at that point if I went down with him and I took the clubs and then I went back up to the tee over there and then I came back up, I'd get a tip, and £4 a round was what I was paid then, which I don't know if that's probably not very much today either, but if we even squared off, it would not be huge amounts of money per hour £4 a round, and I got a tip of a pound, which was a massive increase. So, lesson one do more than is asked of you and generally good things happen. That's an absolutely true story and I've done a million things since then, but that it's such an easy thing to think about Just go further.

Speaker 8: 5:57

Elliot, I agree, that is just go further. What could young people do? Could you give me an example of what they could do to go further in their first week in the job, like what are some of the tangible things they can do? Or even if they're in the job, what can they do to go that little step further without stepping outside their kind of remit getting their job done but also stepping outside their remit, if you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 7: 6:19

Totally so much of it. And then I used to work on holiday camps with kids, and I was only a kid myself, but I was a DJ. Job two was being an assistant DJ at a business called the Music Factory Jack Making the music just for you Again, true story. And on the camp, what's the first thing that I did was my attitude as a 15 year old kid. The youngest supervisor in the room with all the other staff was to basically say what can I get you? Can I go and get the water? Can I go and get you a cup of tea? It sounds ridiculous.

Speaker 7: 6:48

In that first week, in those first few interactions with people, make it clear that your attitude is fantastic. Make it clear that you will do whatever's required. And I think some people really struggle with the idea of but I've got this first job, I shouldn't be doing the grunt work. I don't think that's the case. I've been an oily rag in lots of businesses. I started as a graduate trainee in an ad agency with 10,000 people and I was the most junior person. It was never beneath me to go and do the photocopying or to go and get the tea, or to take the minutes in the meeting or to do whatever it took. So I would say again, those first weeks just be useful, Ask questions and if you're asked to do something and you don't quite know what it means, say I'm so sorry, I'm new.

Speaker 7: 7:29

Can you help me understand exactly what it is that you want me to do? So I would say show your attitude is fantastically positive and be confident to ask the question, which is really the art of a great interview. But actually in life people love to be asked what do you really mean by that? Because it shows that you care and you'll get the job done. So that's to me very simple, practical steps, that in those very early hours and days you want the people around you, the senior people in the business or wherever it is the organization you've joined, to go. That Jack, that Elliot, they're all right, they're a good egg, they work hard. That's all about attitude. That's not about skill, but attitude to me, Trump's skill every day of the week. If you're lazy and you're not interested, but you're a genius, you're not going to last very long. You're going to last a lot longer. You're going to do a lot better if it's clear that you're really into it, that you really care.

Speaker 8: 8:19

I like that a lot and I always say I just wear black because I'm trying to lose weight at the moment, so it's just simple to wear black. So, like choosing my black top in the morning, choose your attitude Correct, get out of bed and choose the attitude. How can one become self-aware when they don't know that they're a little bit grumpy or a little bit lazy with their attitude? How can they go about to find who they are? Because it's easier said than done, isn't it? And I love that you're a point of view. It's like have the right attitude, go from over and all the answers to all the questions and everything you do go into the room. But how can we make those ones that may not know that they're? Because everyone thinks they're not everyone, but a lot of people, a lot of people think they're great, they're great.

Speaker 7: 9:01

Yeah, that's a good question and it's not a simple answer. I think you have to. Whoever you are, whatever your level of self-belief, whatever your level of capability is, you've got to try and reflect every day, and I don't mean every year. People talk about annual appraisals, rubbish. Every day is another day. Every day is another universe that you start in and you've got the chance to do something cool or the chance to do something bad that you can then rectify the next day. So I would say that make some time. It's a bit like you make time to do your teeth, you make time to wash your hair. You make time to choose your black, which I'm a fan of black or blue. I mean literally. I've got tops like this one. There's usually a black t-shirt, but I thought, if you're wearing black, I didn't want to. You know, I didn't want to fight for the attention.

Speaker 8: 9:47

We could have been out in debt. We could have done.

Speaker 7: 9:49

I don't know who's out in who's debt, but we can decide that later. But that reflection, working into your schedule every day, going at one point is it the end of the day? How did it go? Spend three minutes, spend two minutes, spend 60 seconds, but give yourself the space to reflect. It doesn't have to be onerous, it doesn't have to be difficult. But if you work into the habits, this is all about habits. Arnie Schwarzenegger always says it's one lift at a time. That's what this is about. Every little day, the compounding effect makes you into a better person who is self-aware. You know, we've all got our quirks and I probably, when I was young, came across as a bit cocky because I thought I knew it and I had to. I mean, I got told that, so it was kind of easy. But if you're not getting told, you have to reflect.

Speaker 8: 10:35

How many times did you have to be told until you actually believed it? Not very many not very many.

Speaker 7: 10:39

I kind of it a few, a handful of times over a period of years in different situations, starting many with my friends when I was about 13 or 14 and I came out with stuff. This is true, I came out with stuff saying I'm not arrogant, you don't know anything. I'd say things like this to my mates who wailed, thought it was hysterical and obviously took the mickey mercilessly and quite rightly. But when I was in my first proper, you know big grown-up job as a graduate trainee after university in a big ad agency called Leo Burnett, I remember a couple of the senior people almost telling me to shut up because I was not listening enough and I was talking too much.

Speaker 8: 11:15

And how do you humbly take that on board? Because it's easy. It's hard, isn't it? If you've got someone around you saying you know what you need to, you really go, and easy being in check, you need to calm down a little bit and learn to listen A little bit. My mum used to say to me Jack, you've got two ears, one mouth for a reason, and be more elephant, not hippo. She used to always say that to me and it taught me a little bit just to be a bit more calmer, like how do you not let that emotionally get to you and how do you build the resilience to go? You know what? I don't know if this individual was right, but at the moment I mean he's got, or she has got, the experience, so let me go with it. And how do you humbly go with it rather than saying you know what my boss is, abc, I'm going to leave?

Speaker 7: 12:07

I think that what you realise is you get older and this is something I wish I knew when I was 18 is that everyone comes to the world with their own stuff and that what you're getting from that human in front of you is not necessarily created by you but is the culmination of the beginning of their day, their month, their year. You don't know what that person's going through. What you have to do is, when you understand that is, have to take what they say to you, not with a pinch of salt, but with a. That may be true and it may not be true. You have to look inside and decide whether that is relevant to you and almost put to one side the fact that they may be being difficult, they may not be right, they may be being unfair, and you have to sort of work hard on an honest dialogue with yourself and say is it true that I am being x, y or z? I've had the opposite with people where I've been giving the feedback saying you are the most sociable, confident person when we go for a drink after work. But in a meeting room with the chief exec you say nothing. Help me understand why you're not saying what I know you're thinking I know you're thinking stuff why aren't you saying it? Let's see if we can unlock that? I knew that person really, really well and they're a good friend 20 years later now. But I was trying to help.

Speaker 7: 13:28

I think if you know that the intention of the, the feedback, is constructive, then you go. I remember the person specifically. Then you go okay, maybe I should listen. So don't take it all on, don't let it make you feel rubbish. I mean, as it happens for me, jack, for me to feel a little bit crushed occasionally for my personality is not a bad thing because it knocks me back a bit, because I come to the world full of. I can do that, I can do this. Not everyone will feel like that. Other people need to be built up. But putting that, putting that into the equation and then just working out what is true, removing yourself from the human, the person, the, the individual, and try not to say their a, b and c.

Speaker 7: 14:05

You choose what you listen to, but I think all of us can learn and especially when we're younger, there's got to be a slither of truth in what people are saying. So take on the slither, but don't. It's like you know, people always say you don't, you don't criticize the person. You you offer, you're criticizing the behavior. Someone isn't bad, someone isn't good, someone isn't stupid, someone isn't clever. There might be things that you say that are stupid. There might be things that you say that are clever. There might be actions that you do that you wish you hadn't, and actions that you do which are wonderful and generous and kind, and all that.

Speaker 7: 14:39

If your feedback is given with good intent, then listen and don't dwell on it. Deal with it, decide. If you're going to you know change, and if you are, then then change. You can do it, but it's your own. Make it your own choice, don't feel oppressed by it. We all have we all have agency, and I think it's a thing that people the difference between people that are resilient and not is the people that believe they actually have agency over how they feel. You can't change the whole world. Well, though, a lot of the founders I know think they can. In a way, they need to. You need to Jack right, otherwise nothing will happen. So there's constantly you're balancing things off with, well, what's real and what's not, but overall, yeah, just be thoughtful about the feedback and then and then be honest with yourself.

Speaker 8: 15:22

I always say you can't hug the world, but you can hug something as an entrepreneur. How do you? How do you? Okay, so I've taken on board that someone and that individual is coming to the world with their stuff and it could be a good day, it could be a bad day. I'm tuning in on what I believe is the truth, part of what they're saying, and I've come away, I've taken 60 seconds to reflect, because that's all I think I've got today, even though reflection can happen in different times and so and stuff, and I'm going to make change. How do I jump from I want to to I have? What is that? What do you need to do?

Speaker 8: 16:04

Because you know that the sake, the famous saying, the only thing that you can guarantee the only change is change. Yeah, and change happens all around us all the time. But how can one actually make change when a lot I the number of young people I speak to they fear of change. Well, I've got a new manager, or, oh, I don't like this, or this has changed, and I'm like, oh, change is happening all around you, that's right. How many houses did you change growing up?

Speaker 7: 16:33

yeah look, change is the only constant in our lives. Truthfully, that's the only thing we can guarantee that things will be different tomorrow, even the way we feel. You wake up and you don't know why some days you just feel better than other days.

Speaker 8: 16:45

I wake up. I go sleep with my ear that way and I wake up with it that way but you're a wax guy, not a jail guy.

Speaker 7: 16:51

So you see, so you can control it mines all over the place. It needs a cut. It's going to get cut on Saturday. But there you go, there'll be change. The change is a footjack.

Speaker 7: 17:00

I think that becoming comfortable with change, if you're going to decide to change in my, in the example I gave you, I was being a bit goby, I was excited. I wasn't trying to be rude, but I was trying to answer someone's question, getting a bit. I think you have to try it out. Try the different behavior out in a small way, where the stakes aren't super high, and just see how it feels. Again, I'm very much a I love science, but I'm a big believer in emotions. We're emotional, we're just creatures and supposedly we're the highest developed species on the planet. Some days we I'm not so sure collectively, not individually, of course. But you go if you try it in a small way. So if I tried in the next meeting to just not speak as much sometimes and I, this would happen and people go. Why being so quiet? And I'm like you can't win. But you go, I'm just going to try this new behavior in a different way and and then you see what happens and you do it a few times and you do it in a safe environment. You might do it with your mates, you might do it with a, a colleague that you trust, you might do it with a boss that you particularly like, but you and you might share that. I'm listening, I'm looking at this and I'm trying to do that. What do you reckon? That's often what I do as well. I share that I'm really trying to work on X and that. So a bit of sharing is always useful and a bit of trying it out, because actually people say that attitude changes behaviors, but sometimes the behavior that you've changed changes your attitude and I think sometimes it's. You forget that and you're theorizing and you're thinking and you're thinking you actually this isn't going to work. I've just got to do it and that's what I've tried to do and it's what I try to help.

Speaker 7: 18:41

You know, I had a conversation with my oldest son yesterday. Was at university and he's he's in love. I hope he will remain anonymous and he's watching this video. I don't know who you will be, but I'm like that's the first time. I mean he thinks he's in love. You know, it's the intensity of that first relationship. But I'm like in kind of try and enjoy it, because you're never going to feel as intense about this Again. So somehow or other try and distance. You know I wasn't. You know, at the end of the day he's got a he's. He may have ignored me but just, but at least he shared with me. He might have felt a little bit better afterwards but I'm like that's that's about.

Speaker 7: 19:13

You go through it and You've just got to be again. You've got a notice. It's the heart, and no one ever talked to me about noticing stuff. This is again. Maybe it's just the times we live in, but we're much more aware now of the way that people's mental. I'm not gonna say health, health is a thing, but the way we think about things actually affects how we feel and what we do. So it's just noticing, when you're making that change, how it makes you feel and going. Was that good, was that bad? Because again, you kind of know, we know the answers ourselves about what's right for us, but it's sometimes just really hard to to listen, to hear that voice. But that's what I would advocate if you're really gonna make change talking about love.

Speaker 8: 19:50

Sometimes I love my job and sometimes I'm like Is it worth it? As entrepreneurs, you go, you go up and down, you do cheers, you do chores, you have moments, you meet really good people and sometimes you meet really people that you think, well, they've got the lots of stuff in their worlds going on. What do you think that young people need to look for to get to close enough as possible To love what they do? And I say that with the the, the little kind of close the Marks, because I don't think you ever can get to. I'm doing a job that I believe I love now, yeah, but I've not experienced every single job in this world and I'll never will no so how can one do something that they Get close enough to liking loving I?

Speaker 7: 20:39

Think that I'm. One of the things I do is I do a speak, something called speakers for schools, and I go into sort of less, less wealthy areas and talk to kids who you know. If you can't see it, you can't be it that you know you're talking to a bunch of people that would not even think about working in a law firm Because no one in their family works in law firm. It's the usual thing, and one of the things I talk about is about Having passions is not a dirty word. Having passions is not a dirty feeling. It's like there are things that you like in life and, of course, as a teenager or as a young adult, they might be things like music and fashion, and you know, if I, if I turn around, somebody loves me and say, well, you can be in the music industry, one in a million or one in a hundred might get that job, and it's the same for fashion. But it's not impossible. I think you've got to. I believe that if you want to love something, you do need to be passionate about it or about the bits around it, and it may not be perfect. It may not be that you're going to be the person that's going around clubs looking for the next best DJ or the next best, or you're going to. You're going to gigs and you're going to hear them. You know the next Ed Sheeran you make. That may not be you, but those jobs do exist and Obviously it's changed, because the web changed it 20 years ago and you can hear people online. They self-publish and all that. But you might get close to it. You might end up working the industry in a different capacity. Now. That may work for you and it may not, but for me, my passions when I was growing up was justice. My passion was for listening to late-night radio, my passion was for politics and my passion, back to the justice thing, was sort of for law and I was going to be a lawyer and I work and my partner in a law firm. But I'm not a lawyer. I'm part-time journalist because I'm curious and I've interviewing people and I do that as a side hustle, but it's related to to Mishkon, my law firm. I am involved in politics in my own way with all sorts of different organizations and I've set on as a trustee of a charity. And the law is an industry I'm involved in because I sit on a board representing English law and English dispute resolution in the English courts internationally. So those threads were always there. For me.

Speaker 7: 22:50

Now that sounds like I thought it all through. I didn't. I absolutely didn't. And there's a thing in there About I love advertising and I love travel.

Speaker 7: 22:57

I've managed to sort of put it together, but I sometimes, like you, love my job and sometimes just feel overwhelmed. You know, you look sometimes up when you're young and you go, wow, they got it sorted. No one's got it sorted. Some days people are rocking and other days, because of all the stuff happening in their lives, they're not.

Speaker 7: 23:14

But I think if you are, don't, don't be dismissive about the things that you love and then work out Well, what? What's the wider space in which I might be able to get involved? That to me, is the love thing. And the other thing I would say is tenacity, don't give up. Someone said to me you know, I started week later, I didn't like it and I left and you go. That might work for some people. In fact, there was an interview a couple of weeks ago with Claudia Winkerman and she said that very thing. She finished her degree, she was very smart, went to Cambridge and all that Worked in a gallery hated it. I look, claudia Winkerman's, one of the most successful TV presenters in the country and Definitely the most successful world-paid woman in the country in in broadcasting. So maybe that was right for her. That was her journey.

Speaker 7: 23:57

But generally I would say, stick at something, because you might find things that you love. What you think you don't love might be because you don't know it yet, and that's. It's a bit like relationships you know, first day Interesting, maybe second day actually, and then as you get into it you go there's more to this person and we constantly learn, because the person and the job may not be giving away what there is in it. And you've got back to the agency point. You can go find stuff in pretty much any job. That is cool. I really believe that if you put me in any job, either now or back, then I know I think I could find meaning in it, which maybe I'm stretching it a little far, but there's something in it that might just chime with me.

Speaker 8: 24:34

Wow, wow, wow, wow. I think we're gonna take a break because I need another cup of tea. I don't know about you. I'm gonna stick to my cup of tea for longer than a week. So we'll be back in six minutes after the break and we'll see everyone in a moment.

Speaker 6: 24:55

There's nothing clever about selling yourself short. Oh my god, I can't tell you how many people. When you dig into their success stories, look how many failures they had first, and what marks them out is their character, and you can control your character. You know how you respond to loss, how you respond to adversity.

Speaker 8: 25:21

And what's the last? Thing? You lost my job.

Speaker 6: 25:24

Um, I suppose you got to be honest with yourself. What went wrong? You've got to have a realistic plan to put it right. And you know bags of determination and self-belief and and the fear of failure. I think you've got to get over that.

Speaker 8: 25:38

How do you not let that get to you?

Speaker 6: 25:41

I wouldn't say love the adversity, but respect that the adversity will make you better. I've been privileged to see you at various different junctures and it was very inspiring then. But look how far you've come. It's amazing. And if you just relentlessly focused on moving forward, learning the lessons of life, I think it's a recipe for success. And don't let others dictate to you your view of the world, let alone yourself. I Said I wanted to be true to my convictions. I wanted to find the right life partner and give my kids the best opportunities I could.

Speaker 9: 26:17

Dr Bank is the largest bank in the UK that you have never heard of. You know the environment is very challenging, I think, for young people. Therefore, seek out every opportunity.

Speaker 8: 26:34

Don't underestimate how long it's going to take to get up in the morning. I always say if you're not five minutes early, you're late.

Speaker 9: 26:39

I think when anyone is starting a Saturday job and you're a teenager, the biggest thing is getting out there. That commitment piece is really important. We know that there are young people for whom actually going to universities, spending three, four years, isn't something that they want to do. They want to get out into the world of work immediately. We've got an operations talent program, lots of different types of ways in which you can actually come into the organization and understand what's available. So go into a meeting looking for that curious conversation, absolutely so.

Speaker 9: 27:10

I think it's always striking a balance between not sort of Interjecting at the wrong times or too frequently, whilst at the same time, if you genuinely have something to say that can add to the conversation and to the discussion, you should absolutely say it. So even though I've been at the bank for 25 years, I feel like I've had five different careers. It's a cliche, but really fake it till you make it. We're looking to grow our businesses. That really is the best advice. Finances can sometimes feel a bit puzzling.

Speaker 1: 27:43

Maybe it's that confusing car insurance policy, or working out the right protection for your health, home and family, or feeling unsure if your pension is on the right path. A Viva can help make these conundrums click. A Viva can help make these conundrums click. Helping solve your financial puzzles. It takes a Viva. It's what you're doing, still doing it for you.

Speaker 3: 28:26

You. I am EY For the purpose that inspires me and the culture that accepts, for a team that relies on me and makes me better for it Knowing I'm always respected for being absolutely me, for my work to have meaning, ideas becoming actions in my direction, my own. For leaders that challenge, guide and support, empowering me to be all I can and bring everything I am, my skills Accelerated, my voice amplified, always feeling her and say without hesitation I love what I do. That's why EY.

Speaker 6: 29:31

Finds you. I got their job, job on total jobs.

Speaker 5: 29:34

I'm so excited. I can't tell you that I just want to scream and shout.

Speaker 8: 29:42

Have you ever had experience where you've gone into a job and thought what have I done?

Speaker 5: 29:48

I felt sick to the pit of my stomach that I've made a bad mistake. I mean, I was ashamed to get a final written warning and it is the ability to be able to take those, those situations and Genuinely learn from them, without letting them destroy you.

Speaker 8: 30:06

Today's news is some large chip paper.

Speaker 5: 30:11

So if it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't right. You know an awful lot these common sense, and one of the surprising things about common sense is it's not very common. Make your choice, make the choice conscious and then, when you are, wherever you are, be present. When you're present, am I learning, can I have influence and am I going to enjoy this? In any situation, there are things you control and the things you can't control. You've got more control than you realize, but equally, don't fret about the things you can't control, because that is the definition madness.

Speaker 8: 30:52

There's a real lesson? There isn't. It is find the miracle in every situation.

Speaker 5: 30:56

Yeah, yeah, failure is not fatal. Your ability to bounce back and be resilient for me is the thing that has made me who I am.

Speaker 8: 31:30

So we're back for the second half, which is Still here.

Speaker 7: 31:33

We're still here. I didn't run away, jack you didn't run away.

Speaker 8: 31:35

No, that's a good sign.

Speaker 7: 31:36

It is a good sign, jack, well done.

Speaker 8: 31:37

Jack. Thank you.

Speaker 8: 31:38

Thank you, and you know what the first half was. So how can I put it? Common sense, real and some tangible advice for anyone listening in. It's funny because this show is for young people but we get so many different walks of life listening in and people who've got 25 years of careers messaging go. Oh, that is something that reminded me what I need to do. So it's funny that you get to see when, as you know and we're going to talk about that right now and I know I've heard a little bit beyond the scenes about your radio career Tell me how that happened, because I know there's so many young people that want to get into radio TV podcasting.

Speaker 8: 32:19

I remember starting a podcast. We started it two years ago and it started. We now do it weekly, but it started quite small and I was so anxious and nervous. Of course, yeah, because as everything worked in that, tell me your story. You've had a.

Speaker 7: 32:35

I've done a bunch of stuff. I think that the first thing to say is right now, in 2024, early January, while the weather's cold in most places in the UK not if you're sitting somewhere beautifully warm in Los Angeles, although it's probably not there because it's the middle of the night this is a brilliant time to make stuff. The reason is, of course, technology. When I was growing up, jack, you couldn't self-create. You couldn't do it. You need a studio, you need a microphone, you need an expensive kit. Now, the ability to make your own podcast with some relatively cheap or even free software, with a mic that won't cost a bomb that you could probably buy for a few quid, these things did not exist. So that ability to do that, to actually go can we do this ourselves is amazing and that I would say to everyone don't not try. You can wait, you can kind of go for something enormous, but actually just if you've got something interesting to talk about, you've got something interesting to talk about it with. Go try some stuff.

Speaker 7: 33:34

For me, I was always really interested in listening to the radio. I haven't, I don't know why. I remember my wife was like why do you love radio? What was your dream job and I said I'd love to run Channel 4. I said this like 30 years ago. Why would you do that, I don't know. I just felt really connected to content and to the idea of reaching people with interesting and what it's kind of rithian in BBC. But Lord Rithu was really important in the BBC around education and around engagement and entertainment and I'm sure I'm forgetting something in that. But the idea of doing that is probably, as a consumer, what I loved and then as somebody who wanted to do it himself is what I love as well. So Little Kid listens to the radio late night and is the kid who wants to ring in. I was that kid Elliot Moss, on the streets of North London in the late 80s or mid 80s, rather ringing in to have random conversations about the Constitution, about Prince Charles at the time, about something on I don't even know who it was, some rubbish about a shout out to my mates on so and so I was that guy and I started in a little business, literally a two person business, called the Music Factory. I was asked to help. My friend, who's now a music lawyer, lives in Los Angeles. He said come and help me with this mobile disco. That's what I started doing when I was 14. And then I stopped caddying, stopped being a golf caddy and started doing that, paved me 20 quid a night or whatever it was, and then, I think, went up to 50. And a few years later I was able literally to. You know, we did 50 discos a year. We did holiday camps, all that. So I had never spoken in the microphone until he got. He had to leave the camp and I had to step in that.

Speaker 7: 35:23

There was a buzz Jack in having an audience, not because I had anything interesting to say, but because I was, because I it wasn't about me so much, even though it looks like it was. It was about giving people fun, helping people have fun. Kids my age have fun. It was, you know, it was DJing. In those days you had decks and you had vinyl. You don't have decks and vinyl now. You just have nice, you know little digital stuff and you play, tap it to AI, tap it to AI and off you go. You just say, yeah, let's do that genre, let's do that one. It wasn't quite the same then that buzz of making people dance and help. You know, and I was doing parties for teens. I was doing house parties at university. I was doing, I did this club, created a club night at uni called Stimulus Back in the late 80s and leads, I was doing everything.

Speaker 7: 36:06

I mean, you know, it was just this idea of, of, of creating something that people wanted to enjoy. So the radio sort of never left me. But I went into the world of advertising. I had some ideas for some radio programs which came out of some work we were doing with a client. Actually at the time got permission from my company, the agency, to go and do it and ended up as having a slot on LBC which then led to my own show on LBC, which then I stopped for a while and then about 10 years ago. So that was about people's problems at work and all that sort of stuff. Great fun, it was a live phoning the red lights on Jack like the red lights on.

Speaker 7: 36:38

Now it's a buzz, it's kind of addictive. And, yes, at first you're nervous I could, I was speaking so fast because I was so nervous and then you just calm down and you, you get used to what people call the radio furniture Because you start to. You know the fact we've got cameras now. You've got used to cameras after a hundred or so of these, you don't even notice them, I don't know. So I'm talking to you but at first all of it's a bit like well, what's going on? And then it all disappears and all you see is the person in front of you or the person on the end of the phone. That happens and then it's the joy of the actual conversation and learning how to really. You know the reason.

Speaker 7: 37:11

I love interviewing people and that show, the latest show called Jazz Shapers, is on Jazz FM every Saturday morning and on any podcast platform of choice, and it's also on British Airways, high Life and so on and so forth. That buzz is getting to the essence of a human and working out how is the person in front of me so successful? It's not that different to you. Know, what is it about this human and what can people listening take out of that? So that's a basic human truth. We listen to people talking and we might get something from it. It's why we all listen and we watch, hopefully, stuff like this and the program I make. But so that curiosity has never left me and it's what I try. Someone called me the Y-Bird once. I'll just keep asking questions until I understand what it is that I'm meant to be understanding.

Speaker 8: 37:57

And what is it? You've been doing, the show you've been doing now for over 10 years.

Speaker 7: 38:02

Yes, I think we're in our 11th or 12th year, wow.

Speaker 8: 38:06

I've started to. I've done 100 episodes, 100 hours, which is quite cool, Not as many as you.

Speaker 7: 38:11

You've done over 500 interviews 500 in this then and probably before that. Yeah, hundreds of hours of radio and the like.

Speaker 8: 38:18

So you start to pick up certain pillars around different successes and different people's kind of I watch how someone turns up and shows up and how they greet my team and what they say and what they don't say. I see and say, I see and say nothing. You see, but don't say Whatever. You notice in all the interviews that you've done that have made these individuals successful. If you could kind of start to I don't know, you've used your reflection time to start thinking oh, I'm starting to see a common theme there. What are those common themes?

Speaker 7: 38:56

So I've attempted to it's funny I was yes, they were talking about using the beautiful chat GPT for whatever version we're on at the minute to literally take this transcripts of every single one of the 500, whack them together and see if AI can come up with from the words, can come up with some of those themes, Because I think that that is going to be interesting, whether that's to teach people stuff, whether that's to write stuff, whether it's just because it's interesting, but kind of knowing obviously my way around it and you're so right about how people are treated, you can tell a lot about the way the person interacts with you on email, even before the interview, or their team does, because often it's a team. If you're dealing with senior people in politics or senior people in business as well, Always watch the PA. Always watch the PA and how everyone's interacting and how on it and they are and all that stuff. Look the themes from an interviewer's point of view. You've got to be careful not to get like drawn into. There's going to be four things here and I know where they are and I'm going to prod. I have four things in my head which are not to do with the person in front of you they're to do with. If I get stuck, I'm going to talk about that thing, but that's a different point to what is it that I'm seeing in front of me. I thought I'd mention that because there are every interviewer has that because otherwise you're not using any notes. I don't use notes. I've done my homework. But then you're kind of trusting your instinct and your brain, and, more than your brain, your emotions, to go. Where am I going to go over here with this?

Speaker 7: 40:23

Those people they are generally. They think they can change the world to different degrees without a doubt, and that's a good thing. We need people like that. They are utterly the best ones, are utterly convinced they're right, because there isn't room to not believe. In a funny kind of way, For the younger ones, they're always fundraising because a lot of businesses still need money, because, even though we've changed, the world of cheap money has gone. People can't just borrow money easily and people aren't just giving it out, but people still need to fundraise. So there's a kind of mentality of they're always selling.

Speaker 8: 41:04

Do you think just on that bit?

Speaker 7: 41:06

do you?

Speaker 8: 41:06

think you can build a big, successful, impactful business without fundraising and do it growth, because this is what I've tried to do. In my previous business. I had raised a million quid, had investors around the table, didn't know what a million quid was. I was 21 years old and it all went tits up and I learned a lot and I found and there's always two sides to the story I got booted out of that company and I started this business and we've not raised and we will now do 10 million in revenue. We have no investors in the business, of course.

Speaker 7: 41:42

I think you can do it, but it's a question of what you want, you as the founder. What is your vision? Is it I want to be 100 million pounds, or is it I want to impact 2 million young people? And the two aren't mutually exclusive. But you've got to be really honest about what it is that you want your business to do, and maybe you need it to be a 200 million pound or 100 million pound business if you're going to help 2 million people. That's where you've got to get clear about it. There's not a golden rule on should you raise or not. But if you want to speed up your growth and you are a software as a service business let's just pretend that for a minute. You are a business where people basically pay a license to use the clever bit of kit that you've created to enable them to do what you want to hire young people and mentor young people and so on Then you might well need some investment, but actually that investment might be the most brilliant company with the most fabulous founder that knows exactly what widgets you need, knows exactly how to do it and, by the way, I'm going to take 20% because I want skin in the game.

Speaker 7: 42:42

There's all sorts of reasons why people fundraise. Sometimes they just want the right person around the table. Sometimes they need it because the business is going to go out. They just need some time to be competitive. I think there's no golden rule on this. I know that the climate is much harder, is all I would say. So you have to fight harder for that money. That's what I've observed of those founders, but definitely it's not a black and white. Should we or shouldn't we?

Speaker 7: 43:06

My mum took her business from the kitchen table and went public. It didn't borrow a penny. Now, arguably, if she had borrowed some and punted a bit more, maybe the business would have been a lot bigger. But for her, her appetite and her attitude to risk and we see this a lot in my law firm job and we talk about what's called the innovation equation the innovation equation is you know you want to innovate. You've got to work out what your attitude and your relationship is between the expertise that you need, either in the business or outside the business, the team that you need, the people, and the risk that you're prepared to take, because the risk that you're prepared to take is actually what's going to drive you one way or another. Some people just say it's not for me, I don't want to raise that amount of money. And some other people say I didn't care, I want to raise 300 million quid, I just needed it. It's so personal Should raising?

Speaker 8: 43:57

be a success metric, though.

Speaker 7: 44:00

No, the most important metric is what's the output. The raising is merely a means to an end. It's very useful to go to the next person and say I've just raised 80 million quid because they'll go. What's that about? And often you see as people raise more and more money. Obviously the investors they've got in. You are the company you keep. If you've got Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe over there versus the most famous venture capital fund and a really prominent investor who's Jeff Bezos he's in there you go oh, he's on the table, he's invested. Well, there must be something in this. So sometimes you bring people in. They may not take very much because that's going to help you raise for the next one. But just back to the question around the characteristics of these people, they can take knocks. They are really good at kind of bouncing back. I've said they really believe in their own point, their own position.

Speaker 7: 44:55

There's a whole spread of whether people are introverts or extroverts. Some people are super quiet and some people are just really chatty or even goby, and I don't think that's the measure of it, because sometimes the quieter person I can be chatty, I can be quiet. There's what mood I'm in, that the quieter person is kind of, as you say, they're seeing they're not saying doesn't mean they're not taking it all in. So I always say to myself never trust someone like me, because I'm more chitty chatty. I much prefer someone who's quieter and more considered in the room, and that's why I work best with. I love people like me too, but not in different things.

Speaker 7: 45:33

In terms of, also, the people that have done best. They're the people that have built teams and built followership. As one of my first chief execs said, you get the sense that people want to follow them and do whatever they ask them to do. That is a rare skill. You can't just pay someone to do stuff, and any of the startups and the businesses I've noticed that have gone to put apart from all the stories that always happen is because generally they probably didn't like the founder. The founder just wasn't very nice. There are nasty people that make lots of money. They just are, but you know they've got a different relationship with their people. But that sense of followership that they create is really interesting.

Speaker 7: 46:10

And I think then there's another thing about people's relationship with money I think I've noticed again as a theme. It's rare that I find people who only are driven by the money. They're the exception. Even though a lot of these people are very wealthy Some are they're usually the slightly less successful ones. In my experience Now I have a friend, a very good friend, who's an investor and he's all about as he says. He's all about the coin, all about the coin, and I like respect that and he's open about it. But that isn't for everybody, so for every person I've met and there are a lot it's are there themes? There probably are, but there's also kind of for every yes there's a no. I think is actually the truth, because the human condition is is an interesting one. But the risk thing, I suppose, if there was one above all, it's having the courage to take the risk in the first place and back yourself. That's probably the number one thing.

Speaker 8: 47:07

That that part around there's a yes and there's a no is so true. When I launched the podcast, I asked two really important people to come up. Well, everyone's important, but two people that I believe would be good. That was the Prime Minister of the UK and Jeff Bezos. Prime Minister said yes. Jeff Bezos, chief of Staff, came back and said not on this occasion. And at least I got a response. And it was just yet again. I was down because obviously I wanted I wanted Jeff on, because I was like entrepreneur, I'm an entrepreneur, but then, at the same time, obviously Rishi came on, which was good as well.

Speaker 7: 47:44

So it's everything you do you get, you're going to get that. It's a bit like the feedback thing we talked about at the beginning. It's like you're going to get a different response from different people. But don't take either as gospel, but there might be something in both, if you know. There's a bit of in, there's something. Always there's a lot of nuance which gets lost in the soundbite world that we, that we've started to live in. The other one thing I was going to say, and it's a bit like you said you know your your business. When you had the million quid, it didn't work out and they kicked you out. That's sort of in. If you were sitting here on the West, we were sitting in the West Coast. Now that would be a badge of honor, of course. I mean you have to have at least 10 failures before you make it big.

Speaker 7: 48:17

My grandpa went bus twice before he ended up retiring at age of 55 with a Rolls Royce in front of him. You know who's? A working class guy from the East End genuinely left school at 14. That was his story. Everyone's got their own. You know that was his and he didn't believe in universities. Like, what are you doing that for, son? You know, and I was the first person to go to uni, and my family, so it's it you get but his. If I'd have not gone to uni, maybe I'd have ended up, you know, worrying and thinking more about the coin and and having the Rolls.

Speaker 8: 48:45

Royce.

Speaker 7: 48:45

But the rollercoaster.

Speaker 8: 48:46

That's not your net side. There's the fleet of them. Don't tell anybody.

Speaker 7: 48:51

But the the other bit of it, apart from risk, is that ability. You mentioned the rollercoaster. You've got to be in for the ride. You've got to enjoy that ride. If it's not for you, if the big ups, the top and then the flying down isn't for you, don't be an entrepreneur. I would say that as well. Whoever you are, you've got to be able to take the ups and the downs.

Speaker 8: 49:09

But you at the start, you you also said at the start of this second half, is this is a great time to create. Yes, it was really hard to self-create back with pre-internet.

Speaker 7: 49:20

Yeah Well you wouldn't even thought about it. I don't think it was so. It was so centralized in media companies. It was central. You know. Of course there were some production companies, but they were done by grownups. If you want to be a production company today, you can go Elliott Moss Productions Incorporated and you can go and sort yourself out and start publishing and post on LinkedIn and post. You can do what you like. You couldn't do that before.

Speaker 7: 49:42

Justin Bieber would not have been Justin Bieber without the internet. The internet didn't exist when I was going up, so if you were going to make it, you have to go and do your 10,000 hours of clubs across the country or the what. That's what you did. So it's changed because you suddenly got an audience. Jacob Collier, an amazing, amazing jazz artist. He got. You know, he got picked up when I think it was. I've forgotten the name. I've gone black with the most famous producers. It'll come back to me. Michael Jackson's producer it will come back to me when he saw him online. He saw this amazing film. Suddenly, this kid goes from being nothing to somebody. So you know that, yeah, I. That's possible now.

Speaker 8: 50:22

The ability. A lot of the top 40 songs that are that get listed are because they are TikTok. Trends on TikTok yeah it's just totally changed.

Speaker 8: 50:33

Well, what is your advice to a young person trying to apply for a job to stick at? How do they stand out? Because there's lots of applications that go in from all walks of life, all different locations across the world, even if it's a UK job how can one really stand out on a CV, can they? What can they do differently to kind of they've taken your advice today and said you know what I'm going to really really reflect, I'm going to put my CV in, I'm going to take the advice when someone says I need to kind of calm down a little bit, or A, b and C, and then I'm really going to go and try and focus to do something that I'm passionate about. They get to the place and I'm always. I always say to anyone and I was speaking to a really senior person yesterday and I said no, I, yes, I do know the CEO, but go and apply for the job the right way, and then I can then have a word but if you don't do it the right way, like everyone else, there's no kind of I don't know, I think that's right that kind of thing.

Speaker 8: 51:34

So hack they apply the right way, whichever that's through the website or whatever that is. What else can they do?

Speaker 7: 51:39

to stand out. Can they do anything? I don't know. I think I think there's a limit. I think you need some luck, but the luck you generate by pushing and pushing in this instance before the job is depending on what the job is.

Speaker 7: 51:53

Your CV, firstly. There's often forms, not CVs, so it's even harder to stand out. I would always say that you've got to write that form in an honest way. I don't mean, obviously, you hope no one's going to lie about anything anyway, but what I mean is write with your voice, try and communicate who you are through the form or the CV.

Speaker 7: 52:18

I've always tried to write the way I speak and people always notice that I write a bit differently. Even if I'm writing a very serious business paper, it has my voice, my tone, my punctuation. I know how I want it to come across because I think it's distinctive. It may not be brilliant, but it's the way I write, it's the way I think. So try and do that. Use language that's real to you. Obviously, it's got to be tailored. You don't want to be swearing and being too friendly or too informed. You've got to judge it right.

Speaker 7: 52:52

But try and really stand out by saying well, you've asked me a question, so answer the question. I mean. So often it's like an exam. People don't answer the question. Answer the question In terms of pushing for those jobs.

Speaker 7: 53:04

It is a numbers game. You've got to write If you really want that gig. There might be 50 businesses that offer you that opportunity. Write to all 50, and follow up and follow up. It is you've got to be relentless. Be practical. Yeah, just do it and follow up until someone tells you go away or they've ignored your third one. You've got to go.

Speaker 7: 53:25

But don't be annoying. You try not to be. Try and be persuasive. Put yourself in the shoes of the person that's receiving the email or the whatever the gimmicks I mean. I remember years ago we used to get people writing to us when they wanted to be trainees in an advertising agency and they'd send a Dr Martin's boot or something about and then make some joke and it's like it's not that funny. You know, if you're going to be funny, that's really hard to be funny.

Speaker 7: 53:53

Comedians not all comedians are good and we all love different comedy. Be careful. Don't go to the point where someone thinks that person's just not serious. They've got the wrong end of the stick. But I would say that honesty or authenticity, depending how you want to say it. Coming across the way you really are is helpful and tenacity. Keep on going, it will happen. And while you're waiting, don't sit there feeling sorry for yourself. Go on. If you need to earn money and most people, young people between 18 and 24 do go and earn that money as well. You know there's and that's a good story to be telling someone well, I'm waiting for this, I'm doing that and whatever it is, there's honour in that.

Speaker 8: 54:33

I like that and I think what you said around, like basically, respect and see, put yourself in the other person's shoes. I watched a movie about two years ago and the you know the American movies. They get out of the car and they go up in the glass office and the chief of staff turns out oh, I need a chief of staff, I can afford this at the moment. So I said, right, I'm going to put out a job out for a chief of staff, let me do it. I was like I'm going to get a chief of staff. I didn't need one, I don't have one now. I thought I needed one. You know one of those moments and we had a lot of people apply and someone turned up to my home downstairs on a weekend with cupcakes and I just thought that was just, that was just way too far. And, yes, I like cupcakes, but I was just and it's hard in the moment because you've you've got to put yourself in their shoes Okay, they've gone and take, they've gone, gone, gone some low-look cupcakes.

Speaker 8: 55:27

So they're not obviously it's a sweet idea, but it's too far, and so I think you have to be like you said with the Dr Martin Boot you have to be really careful. Yeah, from being, they say, be creative, especially if you apply in for an advertising agency or a brand role.

Speaker 7: 55:41

Oh yeah, for sure. You suddenly end up trying way too hard.

Speaker 8: 55:44

You try too much, it comes across creepy.

Speaker 7: 55:46

It's tricky. It is tricky. I don't have a. There is no silver bullet on this one. Start young, I would say start young. And so I've got four kids and number two is doing his A-levels this summer, coming this summer. Now we're in it, aren't we 2024?

Speaker 7: 56:03

He's really interested in artificial intelligence and he's just done his, doing his A-levels. But he also did this thing called an EPQ extended project qualification in AI and all that blah. But a year ago he started writing to professors at Oxford and came people he didn't know. I don't know anyone there that's doing all that stuff. He just did it off his own back. There is no doubt that that will stand him in good stead at some point. Just because he wanted to have a chat with them, he wasn't. He wasn't looking for a job. So if you're really interested in an area, in theory you'll already be reaching out at some point when you're younger.

Speaker 7: 56:33

I joined Amnesty International when I was 15. I saw a film called Cry Freedom, which is all about apartheid in South Africa, and it really upset me and it's sort of the beginning of my own sort of social consciousness or awareness of what injustice looked like. And you don't. You know you do that because you want to do it. But when then you'll have your conversation about why you want to be a lawyer or whatever it is, and you track it back to that you go. Well, this person was really into it. No one told me to do that. My father just passed away recently and he was a fabulous man not in business at all, but he, his whole thing was about. He did all these these community things. He never did anything. He was involved in Sunday Leaf football and various sports charities and all that. And again, it was. It was I said in his eulogy. It was nothing to do with the CV and everything to do with what drove him and it was. It was him. That's my dad and that's that was his life. And yeah, I couldn't go to him for business advice, but you look at the role model and you go that that was never

Speaker 7: 57:37

about the CV, jack. So you know I say this and people of 1824 looking at jobs. It's your life, so find something that really touches you, if you can, and and go with that. And yeah, cautionary money and all that, but it is your life and you, you know it is. It is. You get a chance to change along the way. But actually, if you put it like that, then earning money is the thing that comes out of finding something in your life that you really want to do. And sometimes we get lucky and sometimes we have to change and sometimes you know it's really tough and sometimes we get booted and sometimes that makes us stronger as well.

Speaker 8: 58:12

It's not.

Speaker 7: 58:13

It's not nothing wrong with a boot or a bit of a metaphorical?

Speaker 8: 58:16

We've got one more question. I've really enjoyed this and I could talk to you for hours. What's your Duvet Flip? What's your bed in the morning to flip the Duvet?

Speaker 7: 58:27

I think I've always loved the power of ideas. If I, really, if I had a, you know the, the, the, the, what sits above everything. I never really believed in the power of money to make me happy. I've always believed that ideas, whatever that looks like, whether it's for a better process or it's for a product, or it's or it's for a radio program, or it's for how to sell legal services, or it's for how to raise the profile of a charity, or whatever it might be the idea if you've got an idea and you can tell the story of the idea, for me that's, that's what gets me out. It's like, what can I do today? Like walking here for this interview? I had a conversation with one of my team about a little card that we're doing for someone in one of the countries that we are, our offices are in. There's a story you tell from the address you put on the back, put on the back of a business card, which may sound nuts, but in that is a story about what I'm actually saying about my company, and that may sound crazy, but that is how I view the world. Everything is part of an idea and needs to be expressed and articulated. And so, even like, if I'm not I'm not a physicist, but nuclear fusion. If nuclear fusion is the future of energy and it will solve all our problems, we should be investing billions. That's the idea of change over there. If politics should be much more accessible to young people, how are you going to do that? That's an idea. What am I going to do about that?

Speaker 7: 59:58

We've got election this year. If you're between 18 and 24, it's probably the first time if you're 18 and 19, the first time you're going to vote. The idea of democracy is unbelievably powerful and important and goes back thousands of years, and we in the UK are really lucky that we get to vote without feeling like we might get attacked or worse because of how we want to vote. Democracy is an incredible idea. So I kind of go around and I'm you know everything. That's what gets me out of bed, and if I can somehow or other create ideas that do good stuff whether it's making a dime or whether it's helping. You know, I've got someone I'm speaking to that wants to talk to me about their new business, whatever it might be. Yeah, my head's exploding because it's too much, but actually that's what gets me out of bed.

Speaker 8: 1:00:39

Or, at the moment, a double duvet flip because it's so cold.

Speaker 7: 1:00:42

It is really cold. It's a double duvet died under. Actually, I don't really want to get out of bed at all.

Speaker 8: 1:00:48

I just want to say thank you for your energy.

Speaker 7: 1:00:49

Thank you for having me, and I've really enjoyed this Great stuff. Jack, and good luck with everything.

Speaker 8: 1:00:53

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 1:01:55

For the purpose that inspires me and the culture that accepts. For a team that relies on me and makes me better for it, knowing I'm always respected for being absolutely me, for my work to have me I did, becoming actions in my direction, my own, for leaders that challenge, guide and support, empowering me to be all I can and bring everything I am, my skills accelerated, my voice amplified, for always feeling heard and saying without hesitation I love what I do. That's why EY. Mum, I got the job, she got the job.

Speaker 8: 1:02:40

We got the job.

Speaker 4: 1:02:43

Ready. She got the job. She got the job. She got the job.

Speaker 6: 1:02:53

Find you. I got the job, job on total jobs.